(no subject)

[sebastienne]

Oh, Torchwood.

It doesn't matter if you're good or not, you know (although I've been enjoying you a lot more this season). Because, at the end of the day, you're a sci-fi show that happens to be queer. Not a gimmickily queer show (Will & Grace, Queer as Folk) .. not a normal, straight show that happens to have some queer in it (sorry, Buffy, but this is you) .. a show where the characters, incidentally, reflect the sexuality that I see around me every day. Almost everyone is bi to some degree. And it's incidental. And yes it's shit to live in a world where that's a big fucking deal; but it is a big fucking deal. To not feel excluded, as a given, from the worldviews of all my fandoms (what else have I enjoyed recently - House? Heroes? Lord of the fucking Rings?).

So here's to Torchwood, to bi-visibility, and to the future, where posts like this will seem simultaneously quaint and horrific.

Comments

[distorted-prose.livejournal.com]

Hear Hear!

[deathbyshinies.livejournal.com]

Now that's a Torchwood post I can agree with! *raises fist in solidarity*

[ohmypersephone.livejournal.com]

have you seen season four of house? (This is relevant, I swear but I don't want to spoiler it if you haven't.)

[sebastienne.livejournal.com]

It's funny.. 13's bi-ness made me cynical and worried about what awful stereotypes they're going to throw at us... while "oh my god you're dating me!" made me bounce around the kitchen in joy.

I admit that house is getting queerer.. but it's definitely still in "Buffy" teritory.

[stronglight.livejournal.com]

I'm remaining open minded on this - so far the only dig has been House's, and obviously he abuses indiscriminately ("I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally" kind of thing) so I didn't mind that. I'm waiting to see if it comes back as a big deal or if it is just a fact.

I liked Buffy's queer side, because it wasn't a big deal. Because the main conflict it threw up was Oz coming back and going "shit, you're with someone else" rather than "shit you're with a girl." (I also liked the neat satire of people-who-deny-slashfic in the episode where Willow and Tara became "just good friends who hang out together enjoying Jonathon" and the very gradual coming-out of Willow from the "I think I'm kinda gay" in Doppelgangland.)

What is it that you didn't feel fulfiled by in Buffy? If it was the statistical infrequency, I can't help but suggest that people who genuinely act on their queer side (i.e. seriously pursue sexual or emotional relationships with the same sex) are probably still in a minority of the population.

Perhaps you mean the fact that while W/T were obviously together, we didn't actually see much of it physically - the whole blowing out the candle as a substitute for an actual kiss, etc. That I did object to. Although that said, in some ways I would rather see genuine emotional and intellectual regard - that's the difference between going "look at teh hot gay sex" and going "gay relationships are just as meaningful and fulfilling as straight relationships." (Although, yes, ideally one would get both a real relationship and characters that are allowed to kiss each other.) For me, that's the difference between Jack and Ianto's beautful, sexy, but also tender relationship and the rest of Russel T's bisexual sledgehammer. A lot of the Torchwood queer feels to me like it's done for the ratings ("dude, girls are making out, let's buy the dvd") but the Jack/Ianto is something I hope we'll see more of in other TV shows of the future.

[sebastienne.livejournal.com]

Buffy neatly divided the world into "straight people" and "gay people" - Willow first being part of the former group, then part of the latter. I'm not arguing the statistical infrequency point in terms of pursuing serious relationships; but I am arguing that in my social group I know very few people who are resolutely and certainly monosexual - and Torchwood reflects that absence of monosexuality.

Just as in my experience, there are people who are almost-straight and people who are almost-gay.. but no-one is forced into a box, and almost everyone has experienced some desire (or action, as this is Torchwood, after all) in both/all "directions".

[anotherusedpage.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, much as I love the queerness of Torchwood, I would rather have Buffy-style queer on my tv. Torchwood is hottt. A lot of it is quite fan-service-y (OMG that fight with James Masters). But the thing is, it's... when it's queer, it's about... bodies, and attractiveness, and sexual tension. And when it's hetero it's about relationships. I have a love/hate relationship with Jack's sexuality - it will depend on where they take it, but at the moment, because I strongly suspect that the show is not going to advocate poly/openness, it feels like Jack/Ianto is a relationship which only exists because Jack can't have the girl he wants, because she's in a proper relationship. And that hurts me, because Jack/Ianto is a relationship I love love love, and I don't trust them to play it in a way that isn't going to hurt. Y'know, if it was fanfic, and I was writing it, Ianto would accept that Jack was a big fat slut, and they'd have a happy shiny stable open relationship, but somehow... I see angst on the horizon, and I don't like it.

relatedly, I love that Jack is so omnisexual, but the bisexual-slut stereotype kinda gets me, and yeah.

It kinda looks to me as if people are seduced by people of the same sex, but they love people of the opposite sex. Like, gay is sexy and het is stable.

Don't get me wrong, I love it for being queer scifi, I love it for shifting sexualities and for just bisexual visibility. I just... I dunno. I have an impression that it's using sexuality to gain viewers, rather than to tell a story. *shrug*

[sebastienne.livejournal.com]

heh, i guess my life is full of sex with no depth then, because it feels more right to me than anything else i'm seeing.

i find depth in lots of the interpersonal interactions (esp. jack/ianto) .. tho i freely admit there's a fair share of sex-with-no-depth, i'd disagree with the contention that that's all there is.

[jacinthsong.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen any of s2. Have they shown any female-female relationships that aren't purely titillating, ultimately tragic and/or just there because she can't get the man she wants yet?

[glamwhorebunni.livejournal.com]

No.

[glamwhorebunni.livejournal.com]

I disagree, and think it is a gimmicky queer show. And I prefer Will & Grace.

[antoniabaker.livejournal.com]

I couldn't be bothered to watch it after the 20 minutes fo the first episode because all the characters seemed kind of 'doughy'. But I like all shows that are openly gay or bi, even sex and the city samantha's time of dating a woman can be very useful. 'oh I see, like Samantha, I get it' is a fairly freqeunt response.

I love will and grace purely to remind myself that however bad things get I'm not and never will be grace.

My friend's going to be in an episode of Torchwood, look out for a cute guy who gets frozen.

[sebastienne.livejournal.com]

think i've already seen that one - from world war 1?

[(Anonymous)]

Well, maybe I haven't seen enough - but Torchwood does seem to be almost entirely populated with bisexual male sluts.

[ohmypersephone.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of 13/Olivia Wilde at all (if you ask me, CTB should have been kept on from the get-go - why is it that Beautiful and Mysterious are characteristics sufficient for a woman, but Taub/Kutner/etc, let alone House himself, actually get a semblance of complexity?), and I'm worried the bisexual storyline will be completely half-hearted. (Although 13/Cameron could be suitably twisted.)

Haha - I loved that line!
Agreed on Buffy - the straight/gay dichotomy was a bit ridiculous. It was quite insulting to Oz/Xander, and a bit of a retcon of character on Willow's part. Are there any bisexual characters on TV that actually "come out" as bi (rather than pingponging) and manage to be legitimate characters? Never seen Torchwood...

PS: Do you still live in Oxford, or have you since moved?

[sebastienne.livejournal.com]

Torchwood is much more fluid; that's why I still relate to it, despite all the issues people have with it that you can see documented in these comments.

I am indeed still in Oxford! Sadly I think I may end up never leaving the place, as it has somewhat swallowed me whole...

[ohmypersephone.livejournal.com]

Ah, lovely! Where in Oxford are you?
I suppose that means I'll be seeing you around next year...

This is so surreal. I remember when I was a little preteen with trans-Atlantic dreams, and you'd just gotten an offer - and now...here I am, about to head off, and you've already graduated...